Author Topic: Motore Torino DNF 30 - Diatto A Clement  (Read 3653 times)

billmine

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Re: Motore Torino DNF 30 - Diatto A Clement
« Reply #60 on: 01 January, 2012, 03:22:40 PM »
Thank you Ian and Frank - the whole thing is a puzzle - yes the starting handle could very well be a "add on" but without something like that "how was it started"? - the two lock nuts must be the answer to something.

The cast iron base must be original along with the intermediate bearing.

keep  the comments coming

Bill




billmine

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Re: Motore Torino DNF 30 - Diatto A Clement
« Reply #61 on: 04 January, 2012, 07:43:48 AM »
Hopefully I may or may not be able to add to the information that I now know about this engine - I am once again off to PNG on the 16th Jan for another Voluntary Assignment.

I will be talking to the Moresby Truck and Tractor Shop so hopefully I may be able to find out something from the original owner ( 40 years ago) - I do believe that he is still alive -

I will be able to communicate, I will be on the Web.

Bill

billmine

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Re: Motore Torino DNF 30 - Diatto A Clement
« Reply #62 on: 14 January, 2012, 12:40:07 PM »
On further investigation today - I scratched a spot on the section that bolts on to the flywheel- I found a threaded section - 3/8 whitworth thread - the thread was cleaned out by using a 3/8 W plug tap.

This further indicates that something may very well have been on this section. A drive sprocket or something else.?

Another 2 photos added - these show the 3/8 thread and section that the thread is in.

Bill

rustyengines

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Re: Motore Torino DNF 30 - Diatto A Clement
« Reply #63 on: 14 January, 2012, 02:39:49 PM »
3/8" thread ???? on an Italian engine
So the question is what thread systems were the Italian’s to begin with ??
I thought they always used metric
Ian 
Southern Cross Engines, Lawn Mowers and old tools * TOWNSVILLE

billmine

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Re: Motore Torino DNF 30 - Diatto A Clement
« Reply #64 on: 14 January, 2012, 03:01:44 PM »
Good question Ian - certainly was a 3/8 plug tap with correct number of threads  - you can see no thread damage.

Maybe all of that section was added and not just the threaded section - whatever happened the base must be taken into consideration - don't feel that it also was added along with the pedestal bearing.

Maybe somebody else can confirm Italian threads etc that was used during the early period.

Bill

billmine

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Re: Motore Torino DNF 30 - Diatto A Clement
« Reply #65 on: 14 January, 2012, 03:27:23 PM »
Ian have been looking through the Web for Whitworh threads and only positive thing I came up with is that it was the World's first national Screw Thread and was put forward by JOSEPH WHITWORTH in 1841.

During my research I have been in contact with 4 British Auto/Historical Museums -  - why I searched here was that I was told in another Forum that there were engines made in partnership with Clement, in the early 1900's in the UK.

Just maybe this engine could have been one of them, thus the whitworth thread?

Thanks

Bill

rustyengines

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Re: Motore Torino DNF 30 - Diatto A Clement
« Reply #66 on: 14 January, 2012, 07:03:05 PM »
Hi Bill
The first ‘Metric’ thread was called ‘The French Screw Thread’ I don’t have a year but it was very early and I would not be surprised if it was about the same time as Whitworth just to be different as the British and French did not like each other
BUT now seeing the engine could of been built in the UK puts a whole new light on it and maybe we should be looking at UK engines to see if there is anything that looks like it
Ian 
Southern Cross Engines, Lawn Mowers and old tools * TOWNSVILLE

billmine

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Re: Motore Torino DNF 30 - Diatto A Clement
« Reply #67 on: 14 January, 2012, 07:23:52 PM »
Good luck Ian - as stated I am once again off and will endeavour to find original owner of the Moresby Truck and Tractor Shop - must admit it is a tall order but when there in July, I was told that he is still alive - hope his memory is good, he sold the shop 40 years ago.

I will be on computer but access could be limited.

Bill

franco

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Re: Motore Torino DNF 30 - Diatto A Clement
« Reply #68 on: 14 January, 2012, 09:10:47 PM »
FWIW here is a post from the old TOMM Forum on 25/ 9/07 by Bok Choy Baby, who points out that Whitworth threads were common on old engines from various countries, sometimes in conjunction with metric hexes and sometimes with Whitworth hexes. I have struck Whitworth threads several times in unexpected places on old Continental vehicles and machinery. While he does not specifically mention Italy, it is possible that some Italian manufacturers may have used Whitworth threads - after all, they were the first standard thread, and were in general use world wide in British manufactured machinery.

"Actually threads are an important part of identifying an engine.  I often see people trying to identify engines on forums like this or in magazines, what they always fail to provide is information about thread type and sizes.
It is a simple fact that the majority of French built engines have metric hexes and threads.  Whereas early German and Swiss engines are normally built with metric hexes and whitworth threads.  Tangyes was using smaller hexes on their engines compared to other English makers in the 1890s.  Swedish engines use whitworth hexes and whitworth threads."

It is also possible that in the case of this engine, the driven item, if from from a different manufacturer, might have been fitted in Britain or Australia where Whitworth was the standard thread for almost every application, after the engine had been delivered locally.

Frank.
Cairns, Queensland

billmine

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Re: Motore Torino DNF 30 - Diatto A Clement
« Reply #69 on: 15 January, 2012, 06:08:52 AM »
Thank you Frank - I did read an article that Whitworth was used during the early period in the Netherlands and Northern Italy.

Bill

tractorfan

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Re: Motore Torino DNF 30 - Diatto A Clement
« Reply #70 on: 15 January, 2012, 12:27:58 PM »
Going way back to the photos of the original carburettor. I have just realised that the jet stamped 10 is typical of the early Zenith carburettors, particularly in the veteran and vintage years. I don't think anyone else used that square headed design. The jet numbers were in 100th of a millimeter, so a 100 jet equalled 1mm. The one in the photo is from an early Zenith I have with an 85 jet (0.85mm) jet. The only problem here is that a 10 jet would equal 0.1mm which would make it ridiculously small. Perhaps it's a Zenith made carburettor, even though it isn't marked as such? Zenith had a factory in Italy in the very early days.

Looking at the photo of the shaft coming off the flywheel in Bill's photo above, personally I think the two nuts on the shaft were used to lock a pulley against the flywheel. Only the hub of the pulley remains, the rest of the pulley either cut or broken off. There have been plenty of theories so far, these are just a couple more. Craig.

billmine

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Re: Motore Torino DNF 30 - Diatto A Clement
« Reply #71 on: 21 January, 2012, 10:12:28 AM »
Thanks Tractorfan - I will put in full what was put on another forum for people to look at.

The engine could very well have come from Clement Motor Co LTD, Coventry, Warwickshire. UK.
This was the reason why Adolphe Clement changed his name to Gustaus Adolphe Clement- Baynard. he sold the Company that bore his name - this couldexplain the whitworth thrad.

The Swift car was first built using a thermo cycle one cylinder engine supplied by Clement

http:// www. gracesguide.co.ok/clement.

In PNG and still seeking info.

Bill


billmine

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Re: Motore Torino DNF 30 - Diatto A Clement
« Reply #72 on: 24 January, 2012, 08:31:11 AM »
After receiving the information about the Clement Motor Co in Coventry, I again contacted the Coventry Museum( last mail September 2011) and in their reply they stated that they only had later Clement- Talbot manuals in their Technical Library.

"We do believe that a number of Clement Cars were made in Coventry through the Swift Motor Co "All British Clement" models from roughly 1908 to 1914."

Bill

billmine

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Re: Motore Torino DNF 30 - Diatto A Clement
« Reply #73 on: 17 February, 2012, 11:07:43 AM »
 I now have had 2 letters in response to the article and photos, as published in the TOMM Magazine
in their Feb/March edition

I can  now say that the story as told,that the engine was found on a toilet block approx 40 years ago must not be true.

A person in Sydney has told me that he bought the engine from an Antique Dealer in Sydney in 1979 and in 1997 before he sold it, he put the Villiers carbe on it. He had it running - The for sale sign in the paper I will put in the Forum.

I now know approx when it went to Port Moresby, but not by who, as the person that that bought it remains unknown.

I still do not know what it was used for, nor why was it was taken to Port Moresby. Why was it then placed on top of an inner toilet block?. On being found it was placed on show in the Truck and Tractor shop until I was given it last July 2011.

I do seem to be getting there, but I still have a long way to go to get answers as to what it was actually used for?

Bill

billmine

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Re: Motore Torino DNF 30 - Diatto A Clement
« Reply #74 on: 22 February, 2012, 01:34:07 PM »
I am hoping to find out how, when and why the engine came to Port Moresby, I just received mail to say that the original owner of the Moresby Truck and Tractor Shop is still alive and works in the Highlands.

The person who emailed me knows him so here's hoping that this part of the information should come my way sometime shortly.

The story and photos of the engine could very well be published sometime in the future in the Stationary Engine Magazine in the UK.

Bill