Author Topic: Four Cylinder Engine Identity Please  (Read 8895 times)

Peter Short

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Four Cylinder Engine Identity Please
« on: 21 November, 2012, 10:19:14 pm »
I recently bought this little engine but have no idea who made it, when (1920's?) or what it was used for. The seller suggested it was a marine engine, that's possible I guess. No sign of sea water corrosion as far as I can see, thankfully.

Thanks for any ideas on the maker or other info.




Peter Short

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Re: Four Cylinder Engine Identity Please
« Reply #1 on: 21 November, 2012, 10:24:58 pm »
The carb is Mayer Carburetor Co., Buffalo, New York.

Magneto is stamped Severn HT4 (maybe something else stamped on the other side).

There is no sump to speak of, just a sheetmetal plates on the bottom of the crankcase. There is a cast iron tank below the magneto, a 'dry sump' system?

The crankshaft looks to be "end-loaded" from the flywheel end because the crankcase is like a barrel. It will be interesting to see how many main bearings are in there...more than two?

The cylinder head is removable but the finned exhaust manifold seems to be part of the block.

Engine mounts? Not alot....there are the two square-head screws on the rear face of the block at mid-level and the snout of the timing cover has a machined outside diameter...any ideas?

Cone clutch - would a marine engine have a clutch like this?

Peter Short

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Re: Four Cylinder Engine Identity Please
« Reply #2 on: 21 November, 2012, 10:28:22 pm »
A few more photos:


Peter Short

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Re: Four Cylinder Engine Identity Please
« Reply #3 on: 21 November, 2012, 10:29:34 pm »
The last photos....

Peter Short

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Re: Four Cylinder Engine Identity Please
« Reply #4 on: 21 November, 2012, 10:30:50 pm »
Missed one:

tanksmate

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Re: Four Cylinder Engine Identity Please
« Reply #5 on: 21 November, 2012, 10:39:30 pm »
Hi Peter,  this sure is an odd bod to me,  I have no idea what it is,  also why the 4 brass taps along the side of the head / block /? where does the cooling flow from / to ?  will be interesting to find out all about it in due time  cheers  John

Peter Short

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Re: Four Cylinder Engine Identity Please
« Reply #6 on: 21 November, 2012, 11:31:35 pm »
John,

In the first photo you can see what I think would be the cooling outlet on the cylinder head and the inlet? on the left side of the block, pointing downwards, pretty much like a Model T Ford I think.

Not sure about the taps being on the side of the head - it will be interesting to take a look inside one day. They look to have cups on top, I am guessing for fuel (updraft carb problems?), and I wondered if they could be used for compression relief too? I am making this up as I go, it would be good to hear about starting an engine like this.

Cheers, Peter

rustyengines

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Re: Four Cylinder Engine Identity Please
« Reply #7 on: 21 November, 2012, 11:49:22 pm »
4 brass taps along the side of the head
They are often seen on old engines you fill them up then open the tap to let in a charge of fuel which makes it easier to start the engine
Ian
Southern Cross Engines, Lawn Mowers and old tools * TOWNSVILLE

Peter Short

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Re: Four Cylinder Engine Identity Please
« Reply #8 on: 22 November, 2012, 09:57:13 am »
To give an idea of the engines size - the flywheel measures approximately 300mm, say 12" diameter. The cylinder head is 410mm long (16"), spark plug centres 95mm (3 3/4') so bore somewhat less than this.

Using a mirror I found Made In USA stamped on the magneto.

The long 'snout' on the front of the crankshaft is empty but there is a drive pin right back in nearer the front main bearing, so presumably this 'snout' is there to hold and guide a starting handle?

I see there is a plain, grooved, stud on the front of the cylinder head and wondered if a fan was 'cottered' on to this. The mag drive has a forward shaft extension, I wonder if this drove a fan. I wondered about a generator, but why would you drive a generator at half speed...

Any comments, theories or identification appreciated. Thanks!

franco

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Re: Four Cylinder Engine Identity Please
« Reply #9 on: 22 November, 2012, 01:01:33 pm »
Peter,

I would suspect an automotive origin rather than marine. Marine would be more likely to have a water cooled exhaust manifold, and the clutch looks automotive. There doesn't appear to be any provision for a self starter, and the long snout at the front of the crankshaft does look like the mounting for a permanently installed crank handle. This would be awkward to use in this position in a typical mounting for a small marine engine.

What are the threads on the fasteners on the main parts of the engine, and are the hexes on the nuts Whitworth sizes, American type inch dimensions, or metric? This can often give a clue to the country or area of origin. E.g. prior to WW1 some German machinery used Whitworth threads, but with metric hexes on the bolts and nuts - conversely, early Morris engines were metric, but with Whitworth hexes on the bolt heads and nuts. Things like magnetos and carburetters can be changed over the years, but items like cylinder head bolts, main and big end bearing bolts etc are rarely changed from standard.

Lack of a self starter and the fitting of the priming cocks would probably place it no later than early to mid twenties if it is of automotive origin.

Though there are heaps of exceptions, cast-in inlet and exhaust manifolds seem to be more common on early continental engines than those built in the UK and USA.

Good luck with the identification.

Regards,

Frank
Cairns, Queensland

franco

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Re: Four Cylinder Engine Identity Please
« Reply #10 on: 22 November, 2012, 01:20:59 pm »
Peter,

One more comment: I suspect you are correct in thinking a fan might have been mounted on the stud on the front of the cylinder head, probably driven by a pulley on the shaft behind the magneto. The Austin Sevens had a similar arrangement for the fan. It was mounted on one end of a short arm. The other end of the arm was drilled and split so it could be clamped on the stud. Fan belt tension was adjusted by loosening the bolt on the clamp and moving the arm around the stud until the tension was correct, then the clamp was tightened again.

Frank.
Cairns, Queensland

Peter Short

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Re: Four Cylinder Engine Identity Please
« Reply #11 on: 22 November, 2012, 07:08:18 pm »
Frank,

Thanks for your comments. That sounds like the sort of fan mounting I was trying to imagine. After posting the word "cotter" I realised a bolt was more likely, fitting into the groove on the stud.

I will check the hex sizes and threads, good idea!

rustyengines

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Re: Four Cylinder Engine Identity Please
« Reply #12 on: 22 November, 2012, 08:09:11 pm »
Look here http://www.hcvc.com.au/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1353549794 is this the same make differant model
Ian
Southern Cross Engines, Lawn Mowers and old tools * TOWNSVILLE

Peter Short

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Re: Four Cylinder Engine Identity Please
« Reply #13 on: 22 November, 2012, 08:49:29 pm »
Hi Ian,

Thanks, another old one....and it also has the "racing" fins on the exhaust manifold....but not much else I can see in common. Keep looking please :)

Peter

Peter Short

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Re: Four Cylinder Engine Identity Please
« Reply #14 on: 15 December, 2012, 09:29:51 pm »
I checked a few threads and hexagon sizes...and got confused....

The Diameter/TPI could be Whitworth or American. I haven't found a 1/2" thread to check if 12 or 13 TPI (maybe inside, but I don't want to dismantle yet). I can't tell if they are 55 or 60 degrees, nor if they have radius or flat forms....

I don't have any 1920's references, so in the meantime used my 1948 Machinery's Handbook.

Closest sizes in bold.

-Head studs: 3/8" x 16 TPI, nuts measure 0.689" AF which is most likely 11/16" (0.6875"). According to 1948 Machinery's Handbook, the then superseded U.S. Standard was 11/16". 3/8" Whitworth was .705" - .710" and the then current American Standard was 5/8" (.625") for nuts.

-Timing cover bolts: 5/16" x 18 TPI, bolt heads measure 1/2" AF. U.S. Standard was .594 (19/32"), American Standard bolt heads 1/2", Whitworth .595 - .600".

-Only one other fastener that I could check easily, the odd-ball square-head screws on the rear face of the block. They are 7/16" x 14 TPI with 7/16" AF square head and .827" AF hex nut. US Standard nut is 25/32" (.781"), American Standard nut is 3/4" (.750"), Whitworth is .815-.820".. These could be specials fitted later, the one I removed had been hacksawed to length.