Gry Fegy Timing Marks

[cobbadog]

Hi Guys,
Dee and I have started to strip down HRH Sarahs' engine. Originally this tractor was 6 volt and the engine has the water pump on the block and not the head. We can easily read the numbers on the ID tag behind the steering wheel but not any prefix, like TE, TED or TEA etc. We have a clear engine number as well so how can we identify this tractor as to maodel and age.
Numbers that we can confirm are as follows,
Engine S152510
Serial  ??(D?) 74895
Also where on earth are the timing marks for the ignition? On the front engine pulley or behind the starter motor?
Cheers John n Dee.

[cobbadog]

Hi Guys,

Who is the best place to get an engine rebuild kit for Dees' HRH Sarah? We dropped the head off today and found no obvious reasons for the water in the sump trick. There was one very interesting fact when we lifted the head and that was the head gasket was incorrectly fitted last time. The old gasket could be fitted back to front as the hole for the oil pressure going to the rocker gear shaft was not aligned up so oil only was pumped up to the top of the block and then dribbled down the oil gallery to the sump. None could go up to the rockers at all. So I am thinking that the problem is deeper inside and possibly the spectacle gaskets at the bottom of the liners. As the engine did not have any noises like bearings etc I am not sure if we really need to put in all new liners, pistons, rings bearings or even a crankshaft. But then the cost of new liners, rings and pistons are cheap.

I am trying to identify what bloody model is HRH Sarah.

Engine #S152510

Serial # is ??(? possibleD)74895 -  ??D74895

Next problem is the water pump is on the block and not the head which puts it as an early 1950 or there about but it should have an 80mm bore but this one is running a 85mm bore which I have found could be an upgrade from BareCo.




So what model do you think this one is?




Would you go to the extent of new crankshaft and bearings and/or liners, rings and pistons?




Who is the best supplier of quality parts? I have heard that either Sparex or BareCo are not a good part to use but forget which one so I will check this out later in the week.




Cheers Cobba.

[wee-allis]

 Hi John,

Good to see you have decided to make Sarah new again. Yes, originally 80mm bore and obviously upgraded to 85mm.

In most cases, and I say MOST cases the cause of water in the sump is from leaking liner seals. I have found the aluminium plug in the top of the head under the tappet cover to have eaten through and occasionally the head being corroded through in the vicinity of the push rod aperture.

The most recent one I encountered had been "done up" some 5 years ago, used for a while and then parked up. Water was found in the sump, so the owner took the head for a pressure check and all was ok. Put it back on and water filled the sump over night without the engine being started.

I could see that water had leaked almost right around the outside of the head and down into the cam follows. Head off and found the liners were 24 thou above the bock, holding the head up and only sealing around the top of the liners. On strip down, found the original "rebuilder" had put silicon under the liner seals.  Owner decided on new engine kit. Done and dusted.

As to dating the old girl, most TEA,D,s have a date casting on the right hand side of the block, behind the generator and another cast vertically on the rear housing just behind the join with the transmission on the right hand side. This number usually shows the day, month and just the last number of the year. If it was built either early or late in the year, it is not unusual to have consecutive years on the same tractor from new.

By the way, over the past 46 years I have fitted countless re-build kits from both Sparex and Bareco with out a problem, The only preference I have is the fact that Bareco supply copper liner seals and Sparex, aluminium. I prefer copper. If you have to strip her down to replace the seals, for the added cost in parts, I would shout her new pistons and liners, if they show any sign of wear or corrosion, The labour is just about the same either way.

Hope this helps, Steve.

[wee-allis]

After all that, I forgot to tell you, there are no external timing marks of the TEA engine.
Cheers, Steve.

[Peter Short]

John,

According to a couple of TE-20 serial number lists I have checked, your tractor would be 1948.

As for ignition timing, I have a copy of service notes published in Motor Trader in 1949, intended for "Type TE-A-20, 1947-49"

Here are some of the instructions:

On distributors with service No. 40146, set contact points to break at T.D.C.

On Distributor service No. 40132 points should break 6 degrees before T.D.C. (on crankshaft).

Flywheel drilled to correspond with timing pin hole (1/4 inch pin) in housing.

On engines No. S1E-S8995E flywheel hole is 10 degrees before T.D.C. On subsequent engines hole is at T.D.C.

Set 40132 distributor at 10 degrees before T.D.C. and retard one graduation on timing plate.

If 40146 distributor is fitted as replacement to engines before S8996E, retard 2 1/2 graduations.

Considering all the changes that might have been made since 1948, I would determine T.D.C. while you have the cylinder head off and compare that with your flywheel and 1/4" pin hole in engine block. If you need to know how to check T.D.C. accurately, let me know, there are accurate ways of doing this.

BTW, it sounds like you might be going to remove the liners, if not, with the cylinder head removed, you should clamp the liners before trying to rotate the engine. If the liners are not clamped, they can move = sealing and height problems.

[cobbadog]

thank you guys for the heads up and info on HRH Sarah.
Our local rebuilder has offered up stories of new Bareco parts that didn't fit or of very poor finish ie, liners that were oval or tapered so he warned me off that brand. I too like the idea of copper gaskets over aluminium as the copper would be softer and easier to seal.
Sorry for all the questions but if I end up with Sparex parts and aluminium gaskets could they be annealed to soften them?
Dee an I have decided to pull the liners and also to buy an "in frame" rebuild kit, new liners gaskets pistons rings and big end bearings from memory. It would be nice to be able to use the 85mm bore size again in this old girl. As we can only find the time each Sunday of the week to continue the rebuild this weekend will reveal more info, I hope. As this project totally belongs to Dee and it is her that wants to be the one to do the rebuild with only guidance and a small amount of help in cracking nuts and alike to loosen the parts it may be a slow progress but we will get there.
The numbers in the castings on the diff and on the engine block show that they were poured in 1950 and not 1948. The numbers read on the diff 20 12 5 and on the engine as 1 12 5. But that engine number of S152510E is confusing to me as the engine numbers for grey fergy don't go that hi. From memory they finish at 117,000 on the list I found.
I will have a look for the 1/4" hole on the bell housing section in front of the flywheel to find the locating hole for timing reasons.
Although only early stages in this rescue it is enjoyable for both of us. In the mean time I have to continue doing the tin ware on the Cropmaster to make it ready for painting one day later in the year.
Thank you all so much for all your help and ideas and experience.

[wee-allis]

Hi John,

I personally have never had a problem with kits from either supplier but go with whichever you feel comfortable. Should you choose Sparex and prefer the copper liner seals, they are available from Bare-co as a separate part number.

As to dating Sarah, the numbers are confusing. As Peter says, the serial number indicates a 1948 model. If this is the case, it would be six volt, with the starter motor driving from the front of the flywheel, the steering brake pedals would have small round pads, not oval, a vertical oil filter, not inclined to the rear of the engine, smaller axle shafts and one less bolt in the trumpet housing.

However, the casting numbers are even more so. The last digit indicates the year of manufacture, not the decade. These would hint at a '55 model, BUT, by this time the water pump would be on the head. This change took place after serial number 172597. Now for the engine number, to my limited knowledge, they built around 560,000 of these things.

I wouldn't worry too much in dating Sarah as ladies like to keep their age secret anyway.

Cheers, Steve.

[cobbadog]

Great info and help there thank you Steve. Yeah the age doesn't matter to us but it helps when you can put information on a notice board for the general public to read.
This tractor is a 6 volt model and definitely has the water pump in the block. It has the slightly oval shaped steering brake pedals and 11 bolts around the trumpets where they bolt onto the diff.
Beginning to think that we may have a HYBRID.

[cobbadog]

Just to keep me more confused.
This engine does have the oil filter that slopes back not vertical. I have been trying to date HRH Sarah by using the engine number and not that serial number up on the dash. So that now helps me with the idea of 1948 BUT, the last single digit on both the engine above the generator and vertically on the diff is a 0 (zero) which is either 1940, 1950 1960 and so on. So now I can't understand why a serial number can be before the manufacture of the castings.

This Sunday is Sarah day and yes we will be puling the liners etc out in time and yes we will replace them with new simply because of the small cost involved. Going by the comment that you made earlier Steve about someone using silicone under those spectacle gaskets that it is a big NO NO. So I assume that these are designed to go in dry using no sealants of any kind. I did consider using some stag jointing compound to ensure a good seal could be had but I am now not too sure about that idea.

[Mightgo]

Hi John.  Check out engine no between dist. & oil filler possibly behind coil,mine checks out as 1950, S34438E.I wonder if Sara is S15251O,the O being O as in MNOP ect. Allso check om generator & starter as they will be stamped month & year ,mine being 6 volt 5.50,then of coarse the question would be are they original or not,--and------and------.?             Regards Brian.

[cobbadog]

Hi Brian, thanks for the tips. Tomorrow, Sunday is Sarah day so will have a closer look at the numbers again. First have to get Dee under Sarah to drop the water n oil mix from the sump then drop the sump and look at it from there as to undoing the big ends and pulling pistons etc. I will also start removing all the head studs from the top of the block so I can clean them up so all goes back together again. I tend to run taps and dies over the threads to give them a good clean up and makes it nice for torqueing nuts and bolts when it is time to do so.
At some stage Sarah had her generator removed but the starter is still there in place so I will look for any date codes there. If that is the case the letter "O" is the 15 letter of the alphabet what would that make her be?
I'm about to have o look on youtube to see if there is any scarey bits for tomorrows plan. I don't want to look any sillier than I already am. Also will have a look at the timing that Sarah is set to by finding the 1/4" hole and seeing where the piston is at and what the points are doing as Sarah always burst into life with no effort prior to being stripped down.

[Mightgo]

Hi John. Easy & simple motor to work on,have 2 1950 models one leaked water into sump via aluminium type welch plug in top of head,other head did not have a plug at all.Allso one has a seal on rear of crankshaft & the other has a slinger instead of seal,same as the early Vanguard:s.Not a big difference in serial dos.1/4' timing hole easy to see with starter off from memory.Braver man than me to ask other 1/2 to drain sump.   Brian.

[cobbadog]

Cheers Brian. It is NOT a case of having 'big kahoonas' by asking Dee to drain the sump. I am under strict instructions that she is the one that wants to be 'hands on' so that when us blokes talk about rebuilding an engine she can butt in and I've also done that. I am very pleased that Dee has this interest and that I can help crack the tight bits and or she can use the rattle gun to help her out. She is definitely not the kind to complain about getting a bit of grease and crap under her nails.

Todays progress started out as a disaster and finished the same way. First it was me who drew the short straw to drain the sump which really isn't a bad thing. Then Dee got to work with the rattle gun undoing all the 1/2" bolts around the sump and then wanting to do the 11/16" ones. But there are 3 long sump bolts across the front of the sump, 2 of which came out fairly easy but the middle one was the problem child. After over an hour to remove the bloody thing as it was encrusted in mud and crap and we were unable to reach the bolt without taking the radiator and such out but that would still leave the bottom pulley in the way to be able to touch this bolt so I wrestled with it, Twisting it back and forth bumping it up and down, locking some vice grips on the shanks of the bolt near the head and driving wedges against each other slowly pulled it down and out. Beauty, lets get this sump on the ground but I was not aware of the oil pick up gauze holding the sump from taking it off so off cam that little plate on the side and out came the gauze and down came the sump. I was nominated to get under Sarah and look up her kilt and touch her inner most parts by knocking out the locking tabs, undoing the big end bolts and tapping the piston up and out. After they were all out it was time to remove the liners. Never have had the job of doing this before I got a long brass drift and a hammer and gave one a tap. NO not moving was the call from the workshop foreman. Harder hit and NO again so an even harder hit from the next 3 sizes up hammer and away it went. Beauty all four liners are now level with the bottom of the block section where they sit and a long way from being out on the ground. What is the next plan of attack BOSS? Dee does throw some ideas at me from time to time and most are quite a good idea of approaching a problem. Anyhow, I thought we are replacing the liners so why not just get a long screwdriver with the straight through steel shank and give them a flurry of blows. Yep that did it they popped up and were free but not out. Now we had to get the bottom part of the liner passed the top part of the interference fit. But with a wiggle and bump here and there out they all came. I did manage to break a small section from the bottom of one of the liners but it doesn't matter. So it is apart as far as I wanted to be for today so I thought that I will remove the head studs from the block to get them ready for cleaning up the threads and all but one came out. Disaster #2 is about to happen. With a bit of heat on the block around the frozen stud and with seeing little bubbles bubbling away at the base of the stud I cut the heat, and fitted the stud remover and yep is snapped off below the block. For joy! So one of MY jobs is to drill it out and clean that mess up. Next time we work on Sarah I will get out the calliper's and start to measure the journals of the crank and the size of the bearings in the big end to try and determine what size I need to order with the rebuild kit. There is so much crap inside the water jacket area alone to clean up and this alone will take a while. I haven't removed the old spectacle gaskets as yet but they look as though they are aluminium ones. The more I think of it the more I like the idea of the copper gaskets for this situation.
I also noticed that these pistons have 5 rings, is this normal?
In one of the pics you can see a new style substitute liner, an old beetroot tin.

[cobbadog]

Yes Brian I did look for the timing hole in the flywheel but gave up as I really needed to get Sarah apart. It would be easier to see the hole in the flywheel with the starter out but it would also be a little bit below the opening but at least you would be able to see it as it is rotated slowly to the hole in the housing just below.

Also, why do these pistons have that slot cut in them ?

[wee-allis]

Hi John,

Been away for the weekend and just home.  You two make a good team. I did like the way Dee out-fumbled you to drain the sum etc.

You appear to be doing good so far. Inspect the outside of the bearing shells, near the locating tab and it should show you the size of the existing ones, STD, .010, .020. .030 etc.. A good place to start., but definitely measure to shaft.

When the time comes to install the new liners, I always use a smear of non hardening Aviation sealer or similar, on both sides. Stag, silicon and the like are too thick and hold the liners up, giving too much protrusion. The original seals, from distant memory were paper. (Did my first rebuild in 1969, so memory is a tad jaded).

After you install the liners, they need to be held down so they do not move when fitting the pistons or at any time later. With head studs in place you can drop a large washer over the stud between two adjacent liners, a long bush and then the nut to hold them in place. Just over finger tight with good clean threads is about the right tension.  However, now you have removed the head studs, take two bolts which hold the side plate at the transmission dip stick and use them to hold the liners down. Probably unnecessary advice, but take the bolts from the top so you don't loose oil everywhere.

Now you have clear casting numbers which end in 0, being zero, Sarah is a 1950 model, as Brian indicated. All other factors add up. (How are you Brain, haven't heard from you for a while?)

Cheep up the good work,
Cheers, Steve