Author Topic: ARE ROPES ILLEGAL IN SECURING LOADS - Urban Myth or Fact??  (Read 26534 times)

Scott

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Re: ARE ROPES ILLEGAL IN SECURING LOADS - Urban Myth or Fact??
« Reply #15 on: 09 April, 2013, 09:16:17 am »
Hello all again.
I forgot to mention something fairly important before.
Be very wary of Spectra rope. It can be more dangerous then the $2 shop ropes when used for restraining a load.
Spectra rope does not like to be stretched and knots easily slip in Spectra rope.
Read this. It is just one example of information available on the net.
http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/spectra-versus-nylon
Spectra rope has it's places but holding down loads is not one in my opinion. As a winch rope on the front of the 4 wheel drive is a good use for Spectra rope.

Cheers Scott

Triumphline

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Re: ARE ROPES ILLEGAL IN SECURING LOADS - Urban Myth or Fact??
« Reply #16 on: 09 April, 2013, 09:28:22 am »
We used to use ropes for the lighter or unusually shaped stuff and chains for the vintage cars. My grandfather worked for the PMG so we were weaned on 'telecom' rope. My father knew all the correct knots (which I never mastered) and no load ever moved when he tied it down with good 'telecom' rope. Once ratchet straps came along we never used rope again. Good quality ratchet straps are well worth the money for securing engines. We did keep using chains for many years on the cars as the trailer was especially built for them and we had chains made up specifically to secure the various cars. When we built a new trailer (and the chains went past their usable life) the cars also went over to ratchet straps.
Patrick
Patrick M Livingstone
The Austral Register
Sydney, NSW

junkman

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Re: ARE ROPES ILLEGAL IN SECURING LOADS - Urban Myth or Fact??
« Reply #17 on: 09 April, 2013, 11:51:15 am »
Hello all
Having used rope and chains since about 1968 I don't have a problem with either in the right place and straps form early 90s all have fail points,cut ropes chains links squashed by doser tracks ect and straps weekend by fuel oil chemicals of all kinds which show little sine of damage and had one 2 ton rated  fail on tightening load down.
Watched utube video of new mobile crane being loaded on a ship and strap failed just as it was being swung on board,and new crane was scrap metal.
Investigation found chemical contamination form tins leaking from above on storage shelves and all slings on board were destroyed.
Peter

cobbadog

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Re: ARE ROPES ILLEGAL IN SECURING LOADS - Urban Myth or Fact??
« Reply #18 on: 09 April, 2013, 04:31:47 pm »
Slowly but surely they are getting away from using ropes to tie up ships. Over in W.A. where they load the coal ships a couple of wharves are NOT using any ropes, instead have gone to using vaccuum suction plates to attach to the ship. This system is quicker by an hour over ropes and stronger too.
Cheers, John & Dee. Coopernook. NSW.

junkman

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Re: ARE ROPES ILLEGAL IN SECURING LOADS - Urban Myth or Fact??
« Reply #19 on: 09 April, 2013, 06:31:31 pm »
The march of progress hasent stoped and other types of lashings will evolve and wether we use them depends on costs,is a $12 rachat strap rated 2 1/5 tonn as good as $30 version,it comes down to comon sence and not loseing load.
Re poll never used nylon only rope,large filerment ropes are hopeless and curenet ropes in ute are 1/2 ins rock climing rope also no chains in poll and i still use chains and dogs.
Peter

oceans15

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Re: ARE ROPES ILLEGAL IN SECURING LOADS - Urban Myth or Fact??
« Reply #20 on: 09 April, 2013, 09:21:15 pm »
Hello all again.
I forgot to mention something fairly important before.
Be very wary of Spectra rope. It can be more dangerous then the $2 shop ropes when used for restraining a load.
Spectra rope does not like to be stretched and knots easily slip in Spectra rope.
Read this. It is just one example of information available on the net.
http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/spectra-versus-nylon
Spectra rope has it's places but holding down loads is not one in my opinion. As a winch rope on the front of the 4 wheel drive is a good use for Spectra rope.

Cheers Scott

Dear Scott - I would like to know how your extensive experience with high performance sailing ropes (sheets, halyards, braces, toppers, kickers etc) has led you to post a wild accusation which states that spectra 'does not like to be stretched' and 'can be more dangerous than $2 shop rope' whatever that is??????? 10mm spectra has a breaking load of 4500kgs - how on earth is that unsafe to tie something if you know how to use bowlines and hitches?????????????? Could it be sour grapes? Remember that ratchet straps also assume the user knows how to attach them.
ps - spectra doesn't stretch - it's fibres elongate which is well within it's capabilities.
pss - might be a good idea to resist posting unless you have recent and relevant experience with the subject matter.
Piston pumps, Australs and Diesel Ronnies - Inboard Marine engines - Eatons Hill - Qld

Scott

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Re: ARE ROPES ILLEGAL IN SECURING LOADS - Urban Myth or Fact??
« Reply #21 on: 10 April, 2013, 08:48:52 am »
Dear Scott - I would like to know how your extensive experience with high performance sailing ropes (sheets, halyards, braces, toppers, kickers etc) has led you to post a wild accusation which states that spectra 'does not like to be stretched' and 'can be more dangerous than $2 shop rope' whatever that is??????? 10mm spectra has a breaking load of 4500kgs - how on earth is that unsafe to tie something if you know how to use bowlines and hitches?????????????? Could it be sour grapes? Remember that ratchet straps also assume the user knows how to attach them.
ps - spectra doesn't stretch - it's fibres elongate which is well within it's capabilities.
pss - might be a good idea to resist posting unless you have recent and relevant experience with the subject matter.
Hello again.
What brand of Spectra type rope do you use Oceans?
How do they indicate load rating on their Spectra rope?
What experience have you had on the matter?
What experience have I had on the matter?

Can you show me data supporting your idea where Spectra rope will tolerate a sudden loading such as a 500-1500kg engine suddenly moving in the event of an accident?
Can you tell us which exact knots you use to terminate and tension Spectra rope to hold a load?
What diameter of tie rail do you have on your trailer or ute?
Why are spectra type ropes not mentioned in the Load restraint Guide? Bungy cords are.

Why is it that in a brochure distributed by Barry ropes states categorically that "Accidental dynamic loading Your ropes are not designed to absorb the energy of an accidental dynamic loading. Care must taken to avoid this"
Page 10 http://www.barry.ca/publication/rt-inspection-dyneema-spectra-ropes-helicopter-products-jan-08.pdf
I would have thought you'd have to allow for accidental dynamic loading when tying something onto the back of a truck or in a trailer. Why?? Accidents do happen. Accidents can even happen when they're least expected and can be caused by anyone/anything.

A breaking load (strain) of 4,500kg means near nothing if conditions to allow that tension are not met. What conditions allow a breaking strain of 4,500kg in Spectra rope? What conditions reduce this 4,500kg breaking strain?
Place a particular (and popular) hitch in a Spectra type rope and that breaking strain can be reduced by up to 65%. Your now down to a 1,575kg breaking strain.

If you want to mention spectra in marine vessels here is an interesting article about knots in Spectra type ropes on sailing vessels.
"Most purportedly cruiser-friendly Spectra rope is a double-braid hybrid with a Spectra core for strength and stretch-resistance and a polyester cover for chafe and sun protection and ease of handling. The problem is such hybrids still often feel quite stiff and a bit wire-like and the cover tends to slip over the core, making it necessary to sew the two together in areas of a line that are routinely clamped off in rope clutches. The complicated double-braid construction also makes the rope nearly impossible for most amateurs to splice.

This is a major bummer, because high-modulus rope like Spectra hates to have knots tied in it. Tie a knot in a high-mod line--bending it on to a sail's clew, for example--and you significantly degrade its load capacity".
http://www.wavetrain.net/boats-a-gear/163-paging-dr-rope-yale-phd-spectra-cordage

There is evidence to support that the use of Spectra type ropes do not safely restrain loads on vehicles especially in the event of an accident.
Where is the evidence to support the use of Spectra types ropes to safely restrain loads on vehicles?
'Cause I said so is not/will not be supporting evidence in a Court of Law (remembering a Judge will decide if your load was properly restrained in the event of an accident). References to support that you used an appropriate load restraining method will be needed.
The entire blame for any damages may well be placed upon yourself for using Spectra type ropes if it is proved you negated to take notice of warnings (The one mentioned by Barry is simply one out there on the information super highway).
Stating a breaking strain means nothing as evidence will be presented as to why the breaking strain had been reduced.
It seems to me that Spectra ropes are simply not designed for accidental dynamic loading. I would love it if I could be proven incorrect. Please prove me incorrect.

Would I personally use a Spectra type rope to hold a 500kg engine in a trailer or on the back of the ute? No way with the information given to me to date. Why? What happens if a cow or Kangaroo or pedestrian step out in front of me or a car t-bones me? What impact dynamic loading would be placed upon that Spectra type rope by that suddenly moving 500kg engine whilst continually thinking 'got to avoid accidental dynamic loading'?
Would I change my mind if supporting evidence was given to me? Maybe. But that would depend upon ease of knot tying, loadings, costings and a few other items.

Near every method of tying a load has it place. What do I use to hold my fishing rods on the roof of the car? Definitely not ropes or ratchet straps or chains. Bungy cords are my choice of load restraint in that instance.

Cheers Scott

Scott

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Re: ARE ROPES ILLEGAL IN SECURING LOADS - Urban Myth or Fact??
« Reply #22 on: 12 April, 2013, 08:22:51 am »
Hello all. And a special hello to Oceans.
You guessed it - couldn't leave the Austral alone - it now has transporter, fuel tank and lines - started first yank on the flywheels as promised - apparently bungee cords are good for tying on fishing rods... what about a ton of sideshaft??? f my old boots!
Instead of trying to have cheap shots how about taking some time and give us some information about Spectra ropes and their like?
This thread is about the truth behind a particular urban myth. I am all for learning and I am all for dispelling urban myths with truths so dispel what I have said about Spectra ropes all you possibly can please. But please use fact with references. Please dispel the urban myth I am starting.

How about answering the questions I have raised in the previous post regarding your use of Spectra ropes?

How would you have me tying my fishing rods onto the top of my vehicle? Chains? My largest fishing rod is near enough to 4m long, weighs less far then 300gms and is made from carbon fibre. How should I attach it to my racks?
I have said it before. All the different restraint methods (bungy cords, ropes, straps, chains, wire slings) have their rightful and purposeful place. There is no one solution to restraining every load in a vehicle.

While I'm at it where can you buy spectra rope at a price that makes it economically feasible to be able to be used to tie stuff in a trailer or in the back of the ute?
This I am dying to find out.
I would love to buy about 200m+ of 12mm Spectra for the cars. I use the winches I have in two cars an awful lot and the Spectra would save me fighting with the steel cables I now use. Replacing the steel winch rope (especially in the Landrover as it does a lot of beach work) with Spectra would be simply heaven.
The best price I could find for 10mm Spectra rope is about $7-10 per metre.

Cheers Scott

Combustor

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Re: ARE ROPES ILLEGAL IN SECURING LOADS - Urban Myth or Fact??
« Reply #23 on: 13 April, 2013, 01:09:32 am »
           Will agree with Hatman and Rustyengines to use ratchet straps wherever possible, but I am now very careful about which ones I buy, and how I store them. Bought a set of 50 mm straps (imports) from a big hardware chain for a one off job.
Lashed down a load and brought it home on a trailer but left the load outdoors on the trailer for 3 or 4 weeks in our tropical sun.  The silky orange straps had bleached chalky white and snapped easily when re-tightening them. Other types with a coarser weave seem better, but now when not in use they go in a box in a shaded location. Will now assume that the lighter imports all have a limited life span, and will inspect them closely and replace in a year or two.  Combustor.
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Walky

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Re: ARE ROPES ILLEGAL IN SECURING LOADS - Urban Myth or Fact??
« Reply #24 on: 13 April, 2013, 07:54:54 am »
good idea combustor!


l have had the same problem with the orange straps.
l have upgraded to load rated rated blue straps & take care to store them out of the sun.


steve

adtrac

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Re: ARE ROPES ILLEGAL IN SECURING LOADS - Urban Myth or Fact??
« Reply #25 on: 13 April, 2013, 01:10:59 pm »
I too have wondered about the legality of using ropes so apart from small items. i err on the side of caution and use ratchet straps