Author Topic: Stuck steering clutches on Fiat 505C  (Read 13589 times)

leon

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Stuck steering clutches on Fiat 505C
« on: 21 June, 2014, 10:36:58 pm »
I drove a Fiat 505C crawler today and the only way to get it to turn was to stomp on the brakes.
When I pulled back on either of the steering clutches, nothing happened, the tractor kept moving forwards.

I had assumed that pulling back on the levers would case the crawler to steer moderately in that direction.

Is this correct?

The clutches were rebuilt 5 years ago, but the machine has done a lot of sitting in that time.

Is there an easy way to free them up again?

Thanks.
Fiat 505C Crawler

allisb

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Re: Stuck steering clutches on Fiat 505C
« Reply #1 on: 22 June, 2014, 09:15:40 am »
I would have thought they were not stuck if standing on the brakes caused it to steer? If they were completely stuck, standing on the brake may not allow it to steer and the extra load would bog the engine down?
They may be dragging? Maybe check all the adjustments, then give it some work?

A B
I spend most of my pay on old tractors and engines, I tend to waste the rest

leon

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Re: Stuck steering clutches on Fiat 505C
« Reply #2 on: 22 June, 2014, 10:25:30 am »
Ok. I'm looking to purchase this machine and it's my first tractor purchase so I wasn't sure what was normal or not.

It was such an information overload trying to just drive the thing with so many levers that I wasn't thinking straight at the time.

It was only during he drive home that I thought it was weird that I couldn't steer it with clutches only.

By adjustments you are referring to slackness or play between the levers and actuation of the clutches?
Fiat 505C Crawler

allisb

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Re: Stuck steering clutches on Fiat 505C
« Reply #3 on: 22 June, 2014, 01:20:49 pm »
Yes, to ensure that the clutches are being disengaged as completely as possible.
The tractor will still try to track in a straight ahead manner with the clutch disengaged on one side. Would be a bit different going up a hill, or pushing with the blade of course, but imagine the length of the track as it is going ahead. It's not going to turn by itself without being forced - hence the brakes!
All the best with it, hope the purchase goes well if you get it.
A B
I spend most of my pay on old tractors and engines, I tend to waste the rest

cobbadog

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Re: Stuck steering clutches on Fiat 505C
« Reply #4 on: 22 June, 2014, 02:44:29 pm »
A long time back I used to operate two NTK machines. A dozer and a loader, both had the hand clutch action and needed the brake pedal to be pushed to allow it to steer. Was not a big effort but enough to do the job. It all becomes second nature after a short time of operating.
Cheers, John & Dee. Coopernook. NSW.

richard j

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Re: Stuck steering clutches on Fiat 505C
« Reply #5 on: 22 June, 2014, 05:02:24 pm »
Try pulling both steering clutch levers back at the same time while driving ,the tractor should stop as when they are both back they should disconnect the drive . If it stops both clutches are ok ,may be it has leaked oil into this area  ,drop the drain plugs under both clutches and see how much oil comes out they should be dry, a lot of owners leave them out , if a litre of oil comes out ,flush with kero with plugs in drive for  half a hour and drain ,test drive once kero has drained away.

Best of luck
Richard j

ianoz

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Re: Stuck steering clutches on Fiat 505C
« Reply #6 on: 23 June, 2014, 01:46:57 pm »
The guys seem to have it pretty much covered .Though if it has the same system as the 411Cs it could be wear on the linkage that disengages the clutch .
fowler vf,david brown 30td,cat D24U,D47U,D47J,D46U,R4,D68U IH TD9,TD6 and many more
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leon

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Re: Stuck steering clutches on Fiat 505C
« Reply #7 on: 17 October, 2015, 08:13:21 pm »
Well I had the steering clutch inspection cover off today to adjust the throw of the clutch levers and I accidentally dropped a bolt down it.
Big splash and she disappeared. Will go buy a magnetic retrieval tool and hope it helps me.

Now the next issue is all the fluid that's in there. It looks to be oil with a lot of water (must have happened when machine was stored outside by previous owners and rain got in.

Anyway, what concerns me is that there isn't any way to drain this fluid off. I don't have plugs to drain the steering clutches. Workshop manual depicts 3 plugs all in a row. 1 and 3 are for draining steering clutch deposits and 2 in the middle is for draining the main drive oil.

Am I right in that there should be zero liquid when looking down the steering clutch inspection plate?
The steering clutch cam and lobe are all covered in a thick black oil/grit mix so I'm doing to have to clean it. Without plugs to drain from bottom, I might have to try sucking it out (if indeed it should be dry).

I'm sure the machine is likely a UTB 445 crawler and not a Fiat 505C. I'm wondering if UTB didn't put drain plugs in for some reason, or if perhaps parts where taken from a compatible wheeled tractor which may not jane had drain plugs as they don't have steering clutches.

Does anyone have some helpful advice to get me out of my predicaments?
Fiat 505C Crawler

leon

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Re: Stuck steering clutches on Fiat 505C
« Reply #8 on: 18 October, 2015, 01:16:26 pm »
Magnetic parts retriever saved the day.

I also discovered that instead of having 22mm drain plugs to remove deposits I have a 6mm hole that was clogged with dirt. Stuck a rod in it and the water drained out. Still lots of mud and crap left behind so I'll have to figure the best way to get it out. Not sure whether to try high pressure water cleaner followed by kero to dry it out.
Fiat 505C Crawler

allisb

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Re: Stuck steering clutches on Fiat 505C
« Reply #9 on: 18 October, 2015, 04:51:20 pm »
Gidday, the old blocked drain. Many a clutch etc has come off badly from that.
If you have had water in there the plates could have a bit of a rust issue. They should be dry all the time.
Generally you would not want to put anything in there that could do further damage, but with the oil and water in there anything else is probably not going to do much harm to be honest.
I think kero would probably be the best to clear any oil, but you wouldn't want to get much on the plates that could cause slippage. Thinking as I type, probably slippage is the least of your issues at this stage.
Best get it working and see if the clutches are actually disengaging before doing much else I'd reckon. Go ahead with your adjustments, and see if it will work first. Then depending on the outcome see what comes next!
Just my $0.02c worth anyway.
All the best
A B
I spend most of my pay on old tractors and engines, I tend to waste the rest

leon

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Re: Stuck steering clutches on Fiat 505C
« Reply #10 on: 18 October, 2015, 07:35:35 pm »
I've been driving it around and the clutches have been working. Brake bands were way out of alignment and once adjusted they work well - took up slack on linkages so pedal travel is 50mm.

With the clutches I have too much throw in the levers. I should be able to adjust this out with some adjusting of the clutch levers. I have the levers at my chest before the clutches disengage. Will hopefully reduce the travel ton60-80mm.

Now that it's all "dry" I'll just drive it around a lot and hopefully heat it up enough to help dry it out.
From what I could see there wasn't much oil in it. Mainly water. Water level wasn't too high, so in hoping not too much damage. Other side was bone dry b
Fiat 505C Crawler

leon

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Re: Stuck steering clutches on Fiat 505C
« Reply #11 on: 19 April, 2016, 03:07:27 pm »
For anyone who finds this in the future the update is;

Steering clutches need replacing.  Even though they have had hardly any activity, the fact that they were allowed to sit around for years and slowly accumulate oil and water has caused them to stick and be unreliable.  There just isn't any way of getting around the problem.  The lack of clutch activity just kept on getting worse and worse and it wasn't worth risking my life using this machine on steep slopes.

Winter project involves stripping the machine and replacing the clutches and seals whilst I'm in there.  Will probably do brake bands and brake drums once I have everything all exposed.
Fiat 505C Crawler

cobbadog

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Re: Stuck steering clutches on Fiat 505C
« Reply #12 on: 19 April, 2016, 04:41:17 pm »
Well at least you know what the issue is and how to fix it. Don't you just love 'learning curves"?
Cheers, John & Dee. Coopernook. NSW.

leon

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Re: Stuck steering clutches on Fiat 505C
« Reply #13 on: 19 April, 2016, 10:15:09 pm »
Good lesson of buyer beware and make sure you really know your stuff before buying a machine.
If I had the info I know now about the machine I'd have haggled harder on price.

Clutches etc aren't too expensive but it's a time consuming job.
As they say, you live and learn.

Hoping once if replaced everything she'll then be a really reliable machine.
Fiat 505C Crawler

cobbadog

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Re: Stuck steering clutches on Fiat 505C
« Reply #14 on: 20 April, 2016, 05:03:37 pm »
I always work on the principle that sellers have no principals and tell tall stories. With that in mind, if it is not cheap enough to cover excessive problems leave it with them. I have seen machines that were sold as reconditioned and quite simply were not reconditioned at all. It had been taken apart, found the problem and reassembled for sale. Even then the bolts were not tightened up.
Cheers, John & Dee. Coopernook. NSW.