Author Topic: Alfa Laval alias Ronaldson Tippett 3 Hp model N  (Read 4437 times)

Grasshopper

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Alfa Laval alias Ronaldson Tippett 3 Hp model N
« on: 09 April, 2021, 10:33:55 pm »
Purchased a Alfa Laval Ronaldson Tippett 3 HP hopper cooled stationary engine in not going condition with original manual.
It had no compression so I thought probably a stuck valve.
Got it home whipped off the side cover and sure enough the exhaust valve was stuck open.
fixed that with some wd40 and machine oil.
The engine has good spark from the Lucas maggy
Turned engine over compression just not quite enough.
Put some oil down the plug with some aero start, not even a kick and compression some improvement.
Next check contact points opening, all good at 12 /100th.  Still not firing up, not even a sign of combustion.
Ok check timing ,valve timing all ok, magneto was out of spec on flywheel spark indication, so off with magneto to adjust, this process reminded me of Villiers with tapered shaft.
I found the threads on the magneto attachment base almost shot so this magneto has been on and off like the proverbial  .....,may have to get a plate made up, and holes for studs tapped.
Finally after two hours I had the timing just right.  Fitted new spark plug.
Guess what engine still dead as a dodo and me too cranking the little mongrel. I started off with little lamb but the animals are getting bigger.
Decided to check valve clearances, both valves no gap so adjusted clearance to 016 /100th as per book.
Compression improved and I thought it would have enough to fire, but no nothing.
Pulled the carby apart and drop tube all in order there.
This has really got me scratching my head as to whats wrong.
Next step I guess is to pull the head off and check piston, rings and valve seats and gasket.
Would appreciate any advice at this stage.

One thing I was disappointed to see is the valve guides work in the middle of the water jacket and surely would let water past the guides and valve stems and into oil sump via valve clearance adjustment area.  I thought the valves woud have been in tubes to protect from water.
The book does not address this issue and not showing any tubes in diagram.
What are your thoughts on this set up ?
Have included some pictures, would appreciate any feed back that in my daze may have missed before I pull the head off.
Grasshopper Max

AUSDOK

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Re: Alfa Laval alias Ronaldson Tippett 3 Hp model N
« Reply #1 on: 10 April, 2021, 06:59:31 am »
Hi Max had the same issue and even after using a new plug nothing. Found an old sparkplug in the bits and pieces and it fired first go. I don't use Champion D16 plugs for that very reason. Good luck and never give up. Rudy

cobbadog

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Re: Alfa Laval alias Ronaldson Tippett 3 Hp model N
« Reply #2 on: 10 April, 2021, 09:23:49 pm »
Interesting Rudy, so what plugs do you use?My first prefference is NGK whensuitable size and raange is available.

Max, I would try belting it up as well to encourage it to start. It was the only way I was going to get htat MacDonald to come to life for the first time but is not so bad after that. Try another plug and a suirt of fuel down the plug hole direct.
Cheers, John & Dee. Coopernook. NSW.

Grasshopper

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Re: Alfa Laval alias Ronaldson Tippett 3 Hp model N
« Reply #3 on: 10 April, 2021, 09:29:11 pm »
Thanks for comment Rudy,
This Ronaldson Tippett is becoming a bit of a headache.
I thought over night that maybe someone had previously removed the fly wheel and rotated crankshaft one turn and refitted flywheel causing the timing mark to come up on the exhaust stroke.
Pulled off carby and fuel tank, removed plate access to valves only to confirm the above is not the case and the timing is all good, checked the point movement again with flywheel S mark all good.
Adjusted point gap from 012 to 011 thou.
Timing still good.
The spark plug I put in was a new Denso M17, took this plug out as still not even any combustion in this engine and put in a spark plug from my Lister L known to be good.
Still nothing, spark looks pretty good on plug lying on top of cylinder head. swapped back to Denso plug same sort of spark.
Finally packed up the tools and work area for the day just wondering what's going on.
Guess I will have to take head off if nothing else comes to mind, sure I am not going to find too much.
Valves seem to be seating nicely, no blow back.
I am starting to think this motor is a silent runner.
If anybody has a Lucas SR1 clockwise rotation magneto that can be, not working as I badly need a Base Plate, that the holding bolts screw into.
Willing to pay for this item  If no luck will have to make a new plate and drill and tap appropriate holes.
As you say Rudy just got to keep at it.
Cheers
Grasshopper Max

Grasshopper

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Re: Alfa Laval alias Ronaldson Tippett 3 Hp model N
« Reply #4 on: 10 April, 2021, 09:36:39 pm »
Gooday John,
As you can see by my last post have tried different plugs and fuel /aero start down the plug hole to no avail.
Actually your idea of belting it up to another engine is a good idea.
I have a southern Cross ETB that is up to the job just got to make a flat belt, have the joiner clips, but no might just run a v belt on the flat pulleys with a bit of tension.
Might try that after I finish mowing the Lawn tomorrow.
Cheers
Grasshopper Max

Grasshopper

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Re: Alfa Laval alias Ronaldson Tippett 3 Hp model N
« Reply #5 on: 10 April, 2021, 10:16:47 pm »
On my first post I mentioned I thought the valve guides worked in the water passage quote....One thing I was disappointed to see is the valve guides work in the middle of the water jacket and surely would let water past the guides and valve stems and into oil sump via valve clearance adjustment area.  I thought the valves would have been in tubes to protect from water.  Unquote..
This  on closer inspection is not the case, the valve guides operate in separate passages for exhaust and fuel inlet only.
When I first looked at it there were rusty stains which I mistakenly thought were caused by cooling water.
I would say at some stage some water has come through exhaust muffler when stored and moisture started up a rust colour.
Have cleaned it all out and looks good.
Sorry for the confusion.
Regards
Grasshopper Max

Austral

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Re: Alfa Laval alias Ronaldson Tippett 3 Hp model N
« Reply #6 on: 10 April, 2021, 10:46:38 pm »
The three N types that I have had over the years have all started on the second compression as they should do.
However, in order to achieve that, each magneto (all RS1's) had new coils fitted as part of the complete overhaul of each engine.
I would suggest that you check the coil resistance and condenser capacity, as if original, they will be probably 60 years old if not more.
Good luck,
Austral.

Grasshopper

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Re: Alfa Laval alias Ronaldson Tippett 3 Hp model N
« Reply #7 on: 11 April, 2021, 12:30:47 pm »
Hello Austral,
thanks for comments which are very informative.
I have just discovered on closer inspection of my R&T 3hp that the magneto is not a Lucas, instead a Wico model A.
According to my engine number 77266 it should have a Lucas SR1 fitted, obvious this magneto has been exchanged for a Wico model A.
Starting to think as you suggested coils or condenser may be weak or magneto internal timing tampered with.
I might see if I can track down a good Lucas unit with a  base plate and good thread holes for attaching bolts.
I have down loaded a instruction manual for the Wico Model A and try to  digest that to my limited capacity.
I think the whole problem is within the magneto for this engine.
Cheers
Grasshopper Max

cobbadog

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Re: Alfa Laval alias Ronaldson Tippett 3 Hp model N
« Reply #8 on: 11 April, 2021, 02:37:22 pm »
Wait until Scotty reads that comment " track down a good Lucas unit" or as he says "prince of darkness''.  ::)
I only have a couple of hit n miss engine both run Lucas(both SR1 n RS1) and both are reliable, more reliable than those EK Wico magnetos in my opinion.
Yes, without good spark you will have little hope of them running.
Cheers, John & Dee. Coopernook. NSW.

Austral

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Re: Alfa Laval alias Ronaldson Tippett 3 Hp model N
« Reply #9 on: 11 April, 2021, 03:26:47 pm »
Seeing that your engine has a replacement magneto, perhaps you should check for correct direction of rotation.
The Wico A in itself is an extremely good unit, but only if it turns the right way. Just a thought, as from your description the basics seem to be OK.

Grasshopper

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Re: Alfa Laval alias Ronaldson Tippett 3 Hp model N
« Reply #10 on: 11 April, 2021, 09:28:42 pm »
Hello Austral and Cobberdog,
Just read your posts and the point about rotation on the magneto, so took a torch and dashed up to the shed to check.
With the engine being turned by the starting handle, the magneto viewing the points and cam from the front, the cam is turning anticlockwise.
The driven shaft to the magneto turns anti clockwise in normal running position,  same as the cam so I am guessing the Magneto has the correct rotation

Unfortunately the Ronaldson Tippett service book does not indicate which direction of rotation the cam should turn. maybe some R&T owners could confirm rotation, Thanks.
Looks like I may have a dud magneto with bad coils or condenser or some thing else internal.
No idea how to test coils and condenser, must read up on Wico instruction manual.
I will be still looking for that "Elusive" Lucas SR! magneto with base.
Maybe Scotty has half a dozen lying around.
This will be one engine I look forward to getting it to run.
Stuck the magic worm eye into the spark plug hole and valves look pretty good. A bit hard to see much of bore as plug hole not directly over bore being offset, not much point pulling head at this time although if I have to wait for a magneto to fall out of the sky I may as well, plenty of time.
Cheers readers
Grasshopper  Max

AUSDOK

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Re: Alfa Laval alias Ronaldson Tippett 3 Hp model N
« Reply #11 on: 12 April, 2021, 04:23:12 am »
Hi Max the magneto you have on your engine is a Lucas SR1 not a RS1 ,let me know if you require another one Regards Rudy

AUSDOK

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Re: Alfa Laval alias Ronaldson Tippett 3 Hp model N
« Reply #12 on: 12 April, 2021, 04:35:19 am »
my mistake it is a RS! not a SR! . again let me know if you need one. Regards Rudy

Grasshopper

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Re: Alfa Laval alias Ronaldson Tippett 3 Hp model N
« Reply #13 on: 12 April, 2021, 11:18:36 am »
Hi Rudy,
I would be most interested in buying a replacement magneto as I am pretty sure mine has a coil problem.
I have read up on the Wico currently fitted to my engine and have the required parameters for testing.
I intend taking it off and pulling it down for the tests.
In the Wico manual they say points opening should be 015 thou instead of Lucas 010/012 thou. Rotation of cam anticlockwise looking at front of cam.
This ties in with my Wico direction.
I would like to replace it anyway.
My phone number is 0437739766, you can either phone , or message me.  My email is maxpatty@bigpond.com.
Thanks Rudy.

Grasshopper Max

Grasshopper

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Re: Alfa Laval alias Ronaldson Tippett 3 Hp model N
« Reply #14 on: 14 April, 2021, 09:50:11 am »
I have removed Wico magneto from the motor and tested the coil with a reading of 5.2 on 20K ohms setting on my multi meter for secondary windings, this is apparently ok.
Primary all ok.
Removed condenser/capacitor at first I thought was dead but on test this is perfectly ok.
Next job check all ground points and wiring in magneto and reassemble, check rotation status and get a new plate made up for base and see where we are with it.
Have sources a Lucas SR1 Magneto, but think I might have stuffed up not realizing it is most likely an impulse magneto, find out when Mr postman delivers.
The life and times in getting a little engine to run.
Cheers
Grasshopper Max